SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA - DECEMBER 03: (L-R) Greg Williams, Deputy Global Editorial Director, WIRED and Anders Bell, Chief Engineering and Technology Officer, Volvo Cars speak onstage during "The Software-Defined Car: A Conversation with Anders Bell," Sponsored by Volvo Cars, at WIRED's The Big Interview 2024 at The Midway SF on December 03, 2024 in San Francisco, California. (Photo by Kimberly White/Getty Images for WIRED)